Iron Phosphate Slug Baits - Warning!

[Bill Meyer]

Hi Everybody,
I've had doubts about those iron phosphate slug baits for a while now and recent studies are starting to come in that raise very real questions about how these products got the reputation that they have.
These products are sold as "safe and non-toxic" in their advertising, based on the claim that they use only iron phosphate to kill slugs. The ingredient labels show only 1% iron phosphate under active ingredients and 99% inert ingredients. The latter is wheat gluten. Actual analysys however shows that they contain over 1% EDTA in addition.
If these slug baits really were what their label says, they would be as safe as they are advertised to be. They also would not kill any slugs or snails. It is only the addition of EDTA that makes them work, and that EDTA makes them far more poisonous than they are advertised to be.
In Switzerland (study below) the organization that decides if a product is to be certified for organic farming reviewed these baits and denied them because of the EDTA. In their report, they said that EDTA is more poisonous than metaldehyde and that they didn't think the products would be much safer than metaldehyde baits. This is turning out to be true, as animal poisonings are starting to be reported.
Below are links to two reports of dogs being poisoned, and the Ohio State study (also below) says the EPA reports "5 domestic animal deaths, 8 major domestic animal incidents and 106 moderate and minor domestic animal incidents from the use of iron phosphate slug and snail baits". These products do not contain Bitrex as do the metaldehyde products, so they are more likely to be consumed by pets and widlife, and worse yet by children. These are mainly caused by iron poisoning, which is very serious itself. Additionally, excess iron builds up in the system and is very hard to get rid of so continually eating small amounts of these pellets slowly increases the amount of iron in the system until it reaches toxic levels.
I have contacted the EPA about this, and others have as well. I think we'll see a re-evaluation from them in the near future, but I don't know how long that will take. It will almost certainly involve reclassifying these baits as poisonous and requiring that the EDTA content be shown on the label.
If you have these products or are planning to use them, I strongly recommend that you treat them the same way as you would the metaldehyde baits, and consider them equally dangerous until we know more about them. Be extremely careful to keep children and pets out of the containers. Use only sparingly as directed, don't put big bands or piles anywhere, and clean up spills. Do not allow children or pets to play unsupervised in treated areas, and watch for neighbor's dogs or kids when the product is down.
It is ultimately our responsibility to keep kids, pets, and wildlife safe from poisoning when we use or store poisons. Both metaldehyde and iron phosphate baits are pretty safe if used properly, but they are both dangerous poisons. Remember too that the iron phosphate baits as far as I know do not contain Bitrex so they are much easier to eat in large quantities.

.......Bill Meyer

Dog Poisonings:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/b ... 7/art00011

http://blog.oregonlive.com/pethealth/20 ... ed_pe.html

Earthworm Poisonings:
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~soile ... n%2028.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 3ac845cb8c

Swiss Investigation for Organic Certification:
http://www2.eduskunta.fi/kerhot/luonto/ ... an06_E.pdf

Sluggo Label and Advertising:
http://www.montereylawngarden.com/pdf/s ... ingual.pdf

http://www.neudorff.com/index.php?id=181

http://www.growercentral.com/UPLOADS/PD ... ochure.pdf

NY Department of Environmental Conservation Statement:
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/in ... id_500.pdf

[thy]

Seems like everytime we find a new product instread of an problematic one... after 10 or 25 year it show up to have other problems

But this time I can not follow you... did a search for EDTA and it showed up to be an antioxigent... we generally need then due to our way of living, eating, polution ect.
It even showed than even EDTA did bind some metals and absolutely some poison methals, but it did not connect with iron.

All the tests you link to can be tru and the search I did can be false

But:
Every time I see a scientific test I want to know

What did they look for
How long did they do it
How many times
How many people was included/ how big an area did they test

Reabillity and validity

and first of all: Who paid for the music ???

- Lobby' s ?

More free sience in the World ... please.. even if we have to pay more in taxes

Pia

[Bill Meyer]

Hi Pia,

I don't know too much about it but if you like hard science try the link below.

Basically, as much as I can understand it, EDTA frees up the iron trapped in the relatively inert iron phosphate so that slugs and snails are poisoned by the iron, although the Swiss study seems to indicate they may be poisoned by just the EDTA itself. Iron can poison a lot more than slugs and snails, though, and use of these baits is starting to result in dog poisonings. The advertising avoids mentioning that the slugs are killed by iron poisoning or conversely they are poisoned directly by the EDTA (which they don't mention is in there), probably because that might make people think twice about how safe it really is.

It's really surprising how these products have gone so far convincing everybody they were perfectly safe, not just in the US either. Or for that matter how an EDTA product got organic certification here. EDTA is certainly not a naturally occurring chemical.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S01 ... ci_arttext

.....Bill Meyer

[steg]

I'm working on reading up on the links......

from the oregonlive blog (second link, first post)

----

Effective and pet-safe slug bait is beer. Placing a beer-filled tuna can or two in garden beds can eradicate slugs without posing a severe health risk to pets. Keep in mind, however, that pets can drink the beer and may become intoxicated. If you choose to use beer-filled tuna cans to eradicate slugs, watch your pets closely to make sure they don't drink the beer.

-----

Beer is bad to use too!


Working on the OSU article......

[twoblackdogs]

Thanks for the iron phosphate info - I have been using them since I have dogs, and a new puppy arrives in 2 weeks, who will have to learn like the others to stay out of the gardens. I will for sure be reading up further on this.

Though as Steg said, pets like beer - I had a dog in grad school who would knock over beers on purpose so she could drink them... and after about 1/2 a beer would get a little "hoo hooed" as my brother would say, and just roll around on the floor - LOL..

[Bill Meyer]

Hi Twoblackdogs,

It took a few days worth of digging to get enough info to piece that together. It may be quite a while before any re-evaluation gets done, so there may well not be much news about this for a year or more. Some of this came to light as early as 2006.

I'm getting the word out to try to prevent poisonings from what most people believe is a safe product. It will poison dogs and has been doing so, whatever people trying to sell it say. That report of domestic animal poisonings the EPA knows about was I think pre-2009, so more cases are pretty much a certainty.

This is so new that I doubt many vets know about this at this point so I'll bet a lot of incidents get put down to some other cause. Even if they recognise it as iron poisoning I don't think that most would think it was from the slug bait.


.........Bill Meyer

[govgirl75]

Could you use diatomaceous earth? I just sprinkle it on the ground close to the base of the plant and have little problem with the slugs. The down side is that you have to reapply after a couple rains, but it is inexpensive and not difficult to apply. The up side is that I have never had any problems related to it with the 3 dogs and 2 cats we have.
Glo

[R. Rock]

Hello Bill,

It is interesting to know something is being marketed falsely. It would seem w/ all the regulations to get a product to the shelf, something is missing from the info.

I do value your info.

However I do suggest you "tread lightly" on your undertaking and comunication w/ the EPA.

I strongly suggest you advise the EPA the importance of having slug bait. Can you imagine all baits removed from the shelf or banned. Considering the "green movement"; I could see this happening.

I do have pets to protect. It would be interesting to know how many dogs and cats die from mouse/rat poison compared to some slug bait. I don't believe there is a crusade against these poisons.

The "problem" is lack of responsibility; not the bait.

The stress on the subject should be: "Dammit, be responsible and oversee your pets as you would children"

I use the commercial metalyhde here, w/ responsibility. No problems. It works.

[Bill Meyer]

Hi Nut House,

I guess you can fairly say it is being marketed falsely. It looks like the culprit is the manufacturer, but I don't really know how we got to this point. That Swiss study is from 2006 so the contents have been public knowledge since then, although pretty hard to find if you didn't know to look for that.

I don't know what happened with the EPA. It seems there is a running argument about whether they should make manufacturers disclose inert ingredients. One side is companies that want to protect secret formulas, and the other wants full disclosure for safety reasons. That doesn't explain though how EDTA was apparently snuck in as an inert ingredient. I'm guessing that is what happened because the EPA requires all active ingredients to be on the label. This looks like some kind of loophole the manufacturer found and exploited.

I definitely agree it is all about responsibility. I use the metaldehyde baits too, but we don't have a dog. They are pretty safe if you use common sense. We all have plenty of poisons in the house and garage that we know to be careful with, but we do have to be especially careful with poison baits of any kind because they are designed to attract things and get them to eat them. We've never found anything poisoned here other than slugs and have plenty of wildlife. On the other hand the cat kills a few birds and chipmunks during her very few non-lazy vacation days.

There isn't any real talk of banning slug baits that I've seen except among the more extremist organic people. Some of them are pretty out there. The largely discredited NCAP has this on its website --- "According to a phone call to NCAP from the company that manufactures iron phosphate slug bait, there is only one “inert” (unidentified) ingredient in these baits, wheat gluten." --- nice detective work there, huh? Guess you can see why they are a pretty useless source of information. Link for that below.

The problem with pet poisonings in the US is that I don't think anybody keeps track of them. It isn't that easy since many are of uncertain cause - the "I don't know what's wrong with my pet" type - and they don't always do tox screens because pet owners don't want to pay. They also don't do too much post-mortem investigation. Actual numbers are too hard to figure out. Both mouse and slug baits do cause a fair number of poisonings, but not a huge number.

It's all about being careful. Always was and probably always will be. We are too quick to believe in magic products that only do exactly what we want them to do and double as a snack food the rest of the time. Then we go on rampages banning everything and end up with nematodes and termites and disease-carrying mosquitos that we can't control.

........Bill

NCAP link http://www.pesticide.org/slugs.html

[gamekeeper]

You don't know my kids and dogs if I could get rid of them that easy I would get a case of the stuff!! Just kidding.

[thy]

Bill are you trying to kill me

Chemical formels in English, ... LOL I haven't had chemistry since 10. grade and was happy to skip it.

But it seems like it is in allmost everything from water to make up.. lovely

But there seems to be good reasons for the use they advise you to follow on the packets... a light sprinkle and not a pile. If you use too much of any slug peelets, they attrack slugs from far away and there are no reason to import slugs.
And now it may be poison for cats and dogs too if pilled up

So it is still a wonderfull wWorld we have created for our grand kids... if you want to live healthy

Stop eating
Stop drinking
Stop breathing


But thanks a lot for your update

[Liselotte]

Hi Bill,
Living in Switzerland and knowing, that we do have very high requirement for products to get the 'bio' (organic growing) label, I was curious. But Safari can't open the link. Well,I had another look at the address and noticed there is definitely something wrong with it.
First; <www2.> would be unusual, but after the 'actual name.' is <fi> for Finnland not <ch> for Switzerland. Then I discovered by "googleing" the word <eduskuta> I did get a Finish site.

Growing Hostas in our climate is difficult, minis just die the second or third year. At 1300 m the growing season is too short and Hostas start going dormant by September. Yes, the climate is a challenge, but it has it's advantages. This is my 42nd year of intensive gardening (5 years NY, 161/2 years Northern Illinois and 20 years 'les alpes vaudoises'),I never felt the need of using any chemicals with the exception of chlorine bleach and rubbing alcohol to clean my tools since HVX became a threat. I don't feed plants but add compost and soil conditioners when I have to dig up a bed (every 4 - 10 years ). I do mulch heavily with finely shredded wood chips (home made), pine, spruce and larch needles. My Hostas don't grow as large as listed in the Hosta Handbook, but their leaves have more substance. If you have ever seen the reddish brown slugs we get here (up to 5 " long when on the prowl) one would think they would eat everything in their path. Their worst enemy are the cool summer nights. The poor beasts are too 'sluggish' and have to feed early morning and at dusk (or in the rain). But by then the cruel gardener is out with a bucket of hot water with a tiny pinch of laundry detergent. it is probably instant death. The collecting is easy in the seedling beds, because they feed in the paths where I leave little piles of weeds. I would never waste time sprinkling slug pellets and endanger wildlife! Besides the best slug eater lives under a rhododendron, a cute hedge hog, occasionally I see him at dusk!
Liselotte

Hi Pia, sorry, I have not been visiting the forum for a long time, just too much going on....

[renaldo75]

Liselotte - it's good to 'see' you again!!

I ran across one of your hosta registrations online a while back and was wondering how you were. I hope all is well with you in les alpes vaudoises.

[Liselotte]

Hi Renaldo,
Thank you , I am fine, but I did have 3 rough garden years and am still doing damage control. 2 years in a row we had a hard freeze in June with one ft. of heavy snow, the 3rd year a devastating hail storm (end of June) shredding everything. To top that, the trees that lost all their leaves, produced new, giant size leaves in September and by October 4th the earliest snow storm ever dumping almost 2 ft of snow. Some trees lost the entire crown others had their trunks split etc.... I have been concentrating on getting the garden back in shape. Lets face it, I learned a lot and find it amazing how nature takes care of itself! It is a new year and I am very optimistic! Right now, I just wish I could come to Chicago for the Midwest Scientific Hosta Meeting. The last one I attended was 2003 when you were there too. Perhaps next year! In the meantime I will try and check into the forum from time to time!

Best wishes,
Liselotte

[sugar]

Liselotte, I don't use any chemical products at all.

Everytime it rains, I go out at night (1-2h after dusk) with a torchlight (I use a head torch light nowadays - so I have both hands free)
I just pick up every single slug and snail I cross and learn them some laws of physics (inertia to be more specific) by smacking them against a wall

Even the plants that lack substance get trough the season without problems. The only issue I have are Burgundu Snails (Escargots), because these move fast and can eat a complete leaf in just one night... So I really need to check every single night (during rainy periods, when it's dry)

[thy]

LOL Liselotte... first thing I thought when I saw your name was :

Hmm, been a very long time since I saw your name last time

Good to hear you are doing fine and I hope you will have a great 2010 in the garden

The link do not exist no more, do not know why.

[renaldo75]

Liselotte - it sure sounds like you've had a lot to deal with in the garden the last 3 years!! I hope this year is much better for you. It would be great to see you again at Winter Scientific. I was just getting started [totally addicted] in 2003 at my 1st WSM when we met. Nothing has changed. Except that I'm even more addicted today.

Best Wishes in 2010!!!

[Liselotte]

Thank you all for the good wishes, a successful and enjoyable 2010 to you too!

Sugar, you are in Belgium, so by those Escargots, you probably mean the 'cool' snails with their houses, which my grandkids watch and are fascinated with when they visit. I throw those into the neighbors tall grass, he hardly ever cuts ( of course the snails return), but would you believe it, they are protected by law in Switzerland.

Pia, I just don't have time for the forum in the day time, but being no spring chicken anymore, at night I am too tired and have fallen asleep at the key board occasionally Just need a good shot of energy!

Renaldo, I wish you a wonderful time at the WSM and if you run into Jan, the birdpath and steppin'stone Lady, give her my love. Our friendship goes back a very long time! Greetings to all I know!

Liselotte

[Linda P]

Lisellote, it's good to hear from you again.
I've always been sorry I didn't get to Winter Scientific that year so I could have had a chance to meet you, too!
Hope you have a great year in the garden this year....and save a tiny bit of energy to just pop in now and then so we know you're okay!

Linda P

[flowerchild59]

I always suspected that they weren't completely safe. That sucks.
I guess I am going to get some ducks and let them run rampant over the gardens. I did that once and they took care of all sorts of things. I live in the country so I can get by with that