ID Challenge - 11 different forms - picture heavy!

[DBoweMD]

I want to echo Paul that #2 is not Ginko Craig, because the flowers are not dark purple enough. Fertility is easy to tell. I think GK also is a late bloomer and Undulata is early season.

[Chris_W]

I think you guys are right about that. The stems and leaves are too big also, in the updated pictures. I really think #2 is just more Undulata Albomarginata in slightly different conditions, that's all.

[mpedersen]

Perhaps we'll get to see how they grow up next year, all in the same soil, same climate etc. Granted, if the observations are true (i.e. Gingko Craig sets pods) well then most certainly #2 is NOT Gingko Craig!!

[ViolaAnn]

Good observations about #2 and I agree.

[mpedersen]

Switching gears a bit, I'm reexaming #10, the one that has seen at least 4 names applied including Tokudama, Elegans, Love Pat and Abiqua Drinking Gourd. I shot those REALLY high resolution, which allowed me to crop in on just a few leaves to give you all a much closer look. Here's that image:



By counting the leaf in the lower left of this image, I get a vein pair count of 13.

Here's what I've found:

Abiqua Drinking Gourd = 16 vein pairs = out
Love Pat = 8 vein pairs = out
Elegans = 15-16 vein pairs = out
Tokudama = 10-13 vein pairs = IN!

Now, the most interesting part was looking at Tokudama Aureoneblosa, especially some of the pictures here - http://www.hostalibrary.org/t/tokudaa.html - interestingly, there's a couple that look like dead ringers for this plant with what looks like subtle two-tone leaves, darker on the outside than inner. The plant SIZE matches up well with what I could found for Tokudama as well. Or is it just that the "wax" has long melted off the leaves and thus revealed lighter centers (keep in mind these are growing underneath a large, thickly leaved maple, but are kindof at a southeastern exposure).

So...what do you all think?

[Chris_W]

Hi

#10 revisit: Definitely not Elegans. I would have to see a picture of it next summer, a little earlier while it is still blue before I take a guess, but if this is blue earlier in the year I would be leaning towards Abiqua Drinking Gourd or Love Pat. Then I would need to see how blue it is, is it powdery blue or blue-green, and what color the flowers are. That will help to determine if it is one of those two or Tokudama.

Vein counts increase as the plant matures, so if you have a count of 13 now it will likely max out a little higher. Also, the vein count listed in the registrations is the count at the time of registration, which is not always the mature count, so that throws things off too. Love Pat, for example, will have closer to 16/17 vein pairs when mature. Love Pat was clearly registered while it was still young as it has become much larger since registration. Basically, the vein count will be a very rough guide and you have to interpret it quite a bit, not take it literally.

But I would definitely throw out Elegans and consider it possibly one of the other three. Then I would want to revisit it next year when it hasn't been sunburned and look at flower color and flowering time also.

Hope that helps a little.

Chris

[mpedersen]

Vein counts increase as the plant matures, so if you have a count of 13 now it will likely max out a little higher.

VERY helpful, I did NOT realize that aspect of hostas! Explains why so many people have said that #8 is Erromena despite the vein counts being grossly different.

For what it's worth, #10 may have been planted for as long as 10 years now, so by all means a "mature" plant if that's the case. I'll have to ask her to verify.

HMM.

Matt

[mooie]

I'm telling ya, #10 is ADG!

Teresa

[mpedersen]

Just an update...I've noticed that our Lancifolias (#3) set a few pods. I was wondering why a plant that's supposed to be a "species" wasn't proving fertile. It SEEMS to be related to a wet period we had last week, and interestingly, it seems that my Blue Angel and Allan P. Mcconnells set seed pods too during the wet weather. I assume that means I should be watering my plants more

[Tigger]

H. 'Lancifolia' is no longer considered a species (since the publication of George Schmid's book, almost 20 years ago). Same with 'Fortunei' and 'Undulata' and all their kin. They are considered hybrids of [unknown] garden origin, not found in the wild. The fact that they rarely, if ever, set viable seed lends credence to this, but is not an absolutely qualifying characteristic. (For contrast, I understand that common horseradish, which is certainly a species, rarely sets seed. See also hemerocallis fulva, the common "ditch daylily," most forms of which are also seed-sterile.)

You may get some pods on 'Lancifolia', but I expect that they won't ripen to produce viable seed.

I'm still thinking that the unknown green is not 'Undulata Erromena'. If it were, it would be a vigorous thing. Bluntly put, a weed hosta. (maybe tolerable in a cool climate where you can keep slugs away from it) It might just be a chance seedling from another hosta. But if it blooms exactly like the 'Undulata' (center-variegated) you have, then you can be convinced it's 'Erromena', vigor notwithstanding.

I'm glad you're keeping up with this, but you may not have all the answers this year. You'll know what to look for next year, though!

David

[mpedersen]

H. 'Lancifolia' is no longer considered a species (since the publication of George Schmid's book, almost 20 years ago). Same with 'Fortunei' and 'Undulata' and all their kin.

Would the various "sieboldiana" hostas fall in that realm as well?

You may get some pods on 'Lancifolia', but I expect that they won't ripen to produce viable seed.

Well, given that I'm trying to rear seeds just for the heck of it, I'll certainly be investigating these pods further. What I found more interesting was how the weather and moisture seems to have helped with initial pod formation on multiple hostas in the garden.

I'm still thinking that the unknown green is not 'Undulata Erromena'. If it were, it would be a vigorous thing...But if it blooms exactly like the 'Undulata' (center-variegated) you have, then you can be convinced it's 'Erromena', vigor notwithstanding.

Well, the unknown small green WAS supposed to be a smaller green. Again, I DID see it with a name on a tag at a local nursery, but I've totally forgotten the name. It was something that included a female people name like Nancy or Joyce or Julie. I did some digging but couldn't find it. I'm going to have to go back. Given that this came from someone who wasn't breeding hostas, but rather dividing purchased cultivars, I'm assuming it IS a registered hybrid. It may take a full year yet to see a bloom on those little guys. They ARE in relatively heavy shade too FWIW, at best probably only getting dappled sunlight.

I'm glad you're keeping up with this, but you may not have all the answers this year. You'll know what to look for next year, though!

Indeed, it may take at least that long. A couple of the tentatively ID'd plants have thrust up a ton of new leaves and are looking great...when I get a chance I'm going to have to take more pictures that will hopefully help confirm the IDs!

[Tigger]

Would the various "sieboldiana" hostas fall in that realm as well?

For now, h. sieboldiana is a species. That doesn't mean things might not change in the future. Scientists (botanists, in this case, or taxonomists to be more specific) continue to evaluate the available information, with opposing sides wanting either to increase or to decrease the number of wild plants designated as individual species. (Plus they're still discovering new species, although I think the last new distinct hosta species was reported almost 20 years ago.)

With regard to h. sieboldiana, there are some (notably, botanist Ben Zonneveld) who consider it a form of h. montana. This new idea comes from examination of the amount of DNA in the cells, as well as comparison of physical and geographic characteristics (which had previously been seen as distinct enough to make these two distinct species). But if this new approach is valid, then even more species might end up lumped together. Currently, George Schmid is listing 43 species and associated forms here (at bottom). Zonneveld thinks the number is probably closer to 25. (Wikipedia lists 34, but is certainly not authoritative.) Needless to say, this is an active debate!

[mpedersen]

For those of you thinking that Hosta NOID #10 is Abiqua Drinking Gourd, I have to ask this. Was browsing online late tonight and noticed that on HostasDirect's website, this variety is listed as not having viable seed. So, question #1. Why would I get a bunch of black seeds from a plant listed as not having viable seed? #2. Would a plant like this set a ton of pods yet all the seeds, even though black, are still duds? #3. Is this line item incorrect on HostasDirect, and ADG is actually a fertile hybrid?

[Tigger]

ADG is reportedly a hybrid between h. sieboldiana and 'Tokudama' (which is very closely related to sieboldiana), so I would be very surprised if it didn't set seeds. The registration for ADG doesn't have entries for fertility. But I don't grow it, so I don't have first-hand experience.

[sanannie]

Abiqua Drinking Gourd is fertile both ways (pod and pollen). There's always lots of pods on mine.

Sandy

[mpedersen]

More information on NOID #10 - I asked my mom about the plants..how long they'd had them. #10's were planted by the guy who originally did the landscaping and was responsible for its upkeep. They were planted more recently, only 2 years back.